1967 compound turbo 4BT Cummins

[dailyf100]

Instead of loading everything in here to get it up to date I will just post the link to my build over at FTE. Below is the link and a few pictures of where I am at.

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/12052 ... build.html

[IN2FORD]

Very cool build! You have some excellent fab skills! I skipped through your thread and must have over looked how you made the dash panel that the gauges are in. Did you make it or buy it?

Barry

[dailyf100]

I made it........face is from a f600 cluster.

[IN2FORD]

I thought that looked like an F600 dash. I have one I thought about modifying for aftermarket gauges. So how did you make the edge around it?

Barry

[dailyf100]

I thought that looked like an F600 dash. I have one I thought about modifying for aftermarket gauges. So how did you make the edge around it?

Barry

1/2 inch flat stock that I hand bent and welded to the plate with the f600 face bonded in and seam sealed to make it look as one. I think there are pics in the attached thread.

[dailyf100]

Finally got the brake lines complete. NiCopp line and the Eastwood Flaring tool made it a snap. I have the 45deg dies and the 37deg dies. Well worth the $. The color of the line is pretty cool as well.

[Big specht]

I'm not sure if I missed it in your build thread. But what turbos are you running? Me and my brother put a 4bt in a supercrew and have been playing with differant turbos and found out the hx30 seems the be the best DD frendly turbo so far. We are wanting to try a hx30-hy35 compound set up.

[dailyf100]

Turbos are a hx30 over hx35

[averagef250]

I skimmed your FTE thread, didn't have time to read it all.

Nice, clean work. You have great attention to detail!

I like it when people give me their perspectives and criticisms, so I thought I might do the same for you here. I have a little experience with 4BT's.

You will never get 35 MPG average. If you have all the right magic bits in your engine you might get high 20's at 65ish MPH cruising. By magic bits I mean 7163 pistons, matching injectors, .16mm initial pump timing and a very efficient turbo system. By very efficient turbo that would be a 40-44mm HX30 or a later H1C.

I really appreciate the fabrication you put into your turbos. It looks great. However, you have a ton of bends and restrictions there and you are using the wrong HX30. That is the agricultural/industrial HX30. It has the wrong compressor on it for a peppier engine. It's made for 100 HP and not enough compressor to run on a road engine. I don't know what kind of HX35 you are using, but the 7 blade later model HX35 works pretty good as a hot single on a 4BT as long as you are OK losing a few hundred RPM's on the bottom and a little smoke to light it. I would recommend an HX30 and HX40, not the 30 and 35. The 30 and 35 are too close. They are almost the same thing depending on which variant of each you have.

You are going to lose some efficiency with all those bends in there.

Your air filter looks very restrictive. If it isn't then it's not filtering and you'll dust your rings and ruin those turbos.

It looks like you're using hydraulic mounts. Be aware those let the engine move around A LOT! Make sure you have a lot of clearance around the top of the engine and all your plumbing can move all over the place.

If you spent $10K on the baddest 700R4 ever made with billet everything and assembled by a 700R4 god somewhere you can still fry it in 20 minutes with a 200 HP 4BT. The 700R4 has physical torque-at-low-rpm power handling limitations you cannot overcome. It will not hold up and likely will never really shift right either. If you run the 700 DO NOT RUN A SUPER LOW STALL CONVERTER! Run a sloppy converter like a bone stock 350 truck one. That will give it a fighting chance because it won't see any real torque until 2000 RPM where it can actually handle it with those fancy billet parts. Every transmission builder will guarantee you they can build you a 700R4 that will handle 1500 HP and your 4BT is no problem. Guess what? They have no idea what effect 500 lb/ft at 1600 RPM has on a 700R4 with the front pump only spinning- Guess what - 1600 RPM because they've never seen it in any other application before.

I'd highly recommend a 47RH with a compushift controller for OD and LU or a 4R100 You will be so much happier with an electric auto or a stickshift. Entirely hydraulic autos like the 700R4 are terrible behind 4BT's. They never shift properly. A 47RH will take anything you can throw at it and then some and throw you through the seat doing full locked 3-4 shifts at 40 lbs boost.

Converter- The 4BT has the balls to blow through almost any GM 700R4/4L60E/4L80E based torque converter. They just aren't really big enough if you're actually making decent power. If you go with a Dodge auto you have limitless converter options which make a HUGE difference in driveability.

FYI if you do end up being horribly dissapointed in the 700R4 and remembering this thread and switching it out for a 47RH- Dodge converters are sold standard by most converters with a modified stator and modified fin angles as a "low stall towing converter". You don't want this with a 4BT. The stall speeds are graded usually as S1.S2,S3 for Dodge diesel converters. You want the bone stock S1 converter for any 4BT. Don't let them tell you otherwise. For a hotter 4BT get an S1 converter and have a converter shop rebuild it with a billet face and triple lock clutch leaving the fins and stator alone.

If you ditch the auto the Ford M5R2 would be awesome in your truck with some 3.00 gears.

These are just my opinions. Things I've picked up in a few dozen 4BT conversions and being involved in thousands of them to some extent. I hope some/all of it is helpful.

[ahawks9er]

Woah! Sweet build. Love the Detroit Steel Wheels.

[Ranchero50]

Interesting build. I no longer do FTE since they acted like douche nozzles a couple years ago so please keep the updates here as well.

On my Cummins swap with the 47rh in stock form it's held up well with a lot of weight behind it. I went with pressure switches to run OD and lock the converter. The shift is effected by the fluid temp so it goes into OD early when cold but otherwise has been reliable.

It's a crying shame you decided to notch the firewall and tucked the engine under the cowl. I really hate to see that as it creates so many other compromises inside. I was able to fit a 6bt in that space without cutting the cab and I think I have enough room to do over / under compounds if I felt the need. I did have to lift the cab 1.5" to clear the 2wd cross member. I will say that having the engine exposed has been a great help when working on it, thus the crying shame down the road when you are cussing that decision.

I'd also suggest rerouting the brake lines away from the hot side of the turbo. Things might get exciting in a bad way after running it hard.

[dailyf100]

I skimmed your FTE thread, didn't have time to read it all.

Nice, clean work. You have great attention to detail!

I like it when people give me their perspectives and criticisms, so I thought I might do the same for you here. I have a little experience with 4BT's.

You will never get 35 MPG average. If you have all the right magic bits in your engine you might get high 20's at 65ish MPH cruising. By magic bits I mean 7163 pistons, matching injectors, .16mm initial pump timing and a very efficient turbo system. By very efficient turbo that would be a 40-44mm HX30 or a later H1C.

I really appreciate the fabrication you put into your turbos. It looks great. However, you have a ton of bends and restrictions there and you are using the wrong HX30. That is the agricultural/industrial HX30. It has the wrong compressor on it for a peppier engine. It's made for 100 HP and not enough compressor to run on a road engine. I don't know what kind of HX35 you are using, but the 7 blade later model HX35 works pretty good as a hot single on a 4BT as long as you are OK losing a few hundred RPM's on the bottom and a little smoke to light it. I would recommend an HX30 and HX40, not the 30 and 35. The 30 and 35 are too close. They are almost the same thing depending on which variant of each you have.

You are going to lose some efficiency with all those bends in there.

Your air filter looks very restrictive. If it isn't then it's not filtering and you'll dust your rings and ruin those turbos.

It looks like you're using hydraulic mounts. Be aware those let the engine move around A LOT! Make sure you have a lot of clearance around the top of the engine and all your plumbing can move all over the place.

If you spent $10K on the baddest 700R4 ever made with billet everything and assembled by a 700R4 god somewhere you can still fry it in 20 minutes with a 200 HP 4BT. The 700R4 has physical torque-at-low-rpm power handling limitations you cannot overcome. It will not hold up and likely will never really shift right either. If you run the 700 DO NOT RUN A SUPER LOW STALL CONVERTER! Run a sloppy converter like a bone stock 350 truck one. That will give it a fighting chance because it won't see any real torque until 2000 RPM where it can actually handle it with those fancy billet parts. Every transmission builder will guarantee you they can build you a 700R4 that will handle 1500 HP and your 4BT is no problem. Guess what? They have no idea what effect 500 lb/ft at 1600 RPM has on a 700R4 with the front pump only spinning- Guess what - 1600 RPM because they've never seen it in any other application before.

I'd highly recommend a 47RH with a compushift controller for OD and LU or a 4R100 You will be so much happier with an electric auto or a stickshift. Entirely hydraulic autos like the 700R4 are terrible behind 4BT's. They never shift properly. A 47RH will take anything you can throw at it and then some and throw you through the seat doing full locked 3-4 shifts at 40 lbs boost.

Converter- The 4BT has the balls to blow through almost any GM 700R4/4L60E/4L80E based torque converter. They just aren't really big enough if you're actually making decent power. If you go with a Dodge auto you have limitless converter options which make a HUGE difference in driveability.

FYI if you do end up being horribly dissapointed in the 700R4 and remembering this thread and switching it out for a 47RH- Dodge converters are sold standard by most converters with a modified stator and modified fin angles as a "low stall towing converter". You don't want this with a 4BT. The stall speeds are graded usually as S1.S2,S3 for Dodge diesel converters. You want the bone stock S1 converter for any 4BT. Don't let them tell you otherwise. For a hotter 4BT get an S1 converter and have a converter shop rebuild it with a billet face and triple lock clutch leaving the fins and stator alone.

If you ditch the auto the Ford M5R2 would be awesome in your truck with some 3.00 gears.

These are just my opinions. Things I've picked up in a few dozen 4BT conversions and being involved in thousands of them to some extent. I hope some/all of it is helpful.

I agree with you on the transmission comment. Disagree about the turbo comments.

There is no doubt I regret the 700r4 decision. Definitely wish I would have done the dodge 47RH. When the 700 takes a poo; I will just go to a 4L80E only because of the adapter and starter location. Plenty of guys have run those with zero issues behind 4BT's. Technically, they are just a TH400 with an overdrive. Lots of TH400's behind 4BT's in 10000lbs bread trucks.

There is a guy on 4btswaps that can't go 400 miles before his TC cracks at the base. Still waiting to see if he has a resolution. And again; I definitely regret the 700r4 decision.

No offense but damn near everything you said about the turbos is opposite of what is going on over at 4BTswaps. Not sure what you mean about the HX30? That is a HX30W with the 40mm inducer and the 6cm exhaust housing that everyone runs on the hx30/hx35 compound system. And they came on the p-pump on road 4BT's? . The 35 is "10%" bigger than the 30. I looked over tons of compound set ups over there and the 6cmHX30/35 seems to be very popular and economical choice. I somewhat copied a couple of other 30/35 builds that use these same turbos and all those guys love it. The key is getting the wg on the 30 inline with the fuel from the pump. Fuel tune and waste gate setting go hand in hand in making this combo work. Some guys weld the wg shut on the 35 and some use it. There are documented 30/35 builds with dyno sheets showing 200 to 250 hp to the tire and torque in the 500 ft lbs plus range. Hx40 has been tried with HX30 and deemed too big for daily road use from what I read. Too hard for the 30 to get the 40 to light it unless you are dumping a ton of fuel that my pump won't do. for singles the general consensus seems to be the super HX30W is what everyone wants for close to stock fuel system and the best drivability. Some guys have used HX35's as you said but they are welding the WG shut and throwing more fuel at them. Same with the H1c but nearly everyone gets rid of it at some point. The HE221 has become very popular in singles and compounds as well. I have seen guys use a HX30w/H1C compound set up with success. And yes, my 35 is the 7 vane. Not sure what you mean by restrictive either? All mandrel bent 2.5 or 3 inch tubing? Maybe a longer path but definitely not restrictive. Technically, there is only one extra bend in the exhaust side compared to traditional compound setups. Pressure side doesn't matter as much. I can overcome that with fuel and wg tuning. I think any combo can be tuned to work but it just depends on what your expectations are.

So can I get mine tuned to work is the big question. Only time will tell.

Theres is plenty of room for movement with those engine mounts. I'm not worried about anything there really.


Some are confident I can hit 35MPG some say high 20's like you. A 35 mpg effort will require a very light foot on acceleration to 60mph on a nice level road. There was a guy with a P pump 6bt in a 1500 ram that achieved 55MPG multiple times doing this. Honestly, I'll be happy with 25 on free used motor oil

[dailyf100]

Interesting build. I no longer do FTE since they acted like douche nozzles a couple years ago so please keep the updates here as well.

On my Cummins swap with the 47rh in stock form it's held up well with a lot of weight behind it. I went with pressure switches to run OD and lock the converter. The shift is effected by the fluid temp so it goes into OD early when cold but otherwise has been reliable.

It's a crying shame you decided to notch the firewall and tucked the engine under the cowl. I really hate to see that as it creates so many other compromises inside. I was able to fit a 6bt in that space without cutting the cab and I think I have enough room to do over / under compounds if I felt the need. I did have to lift the cab 1.5" to clear the 2wd cross member. I will say that having the engine exposed has been a great help when working on it, thus the crying shame down the road when you are cussing that decision.

I'd also suggest rerouting the brake lines away from the hot side of the turbo. Things might get exciting in a bad way after running it hard.

I would't go as far as to call it a crying shame and didn't "have to" cut the fire wall? I wanted to...just because.....mainly I wanted the engine as far back as possible for ride and handling quality. I knew it would create imagination in other places and thats the challenge I love. I can easily get to everything even with the engine set back so I'm not to worried about it. I was a aviation mechanic in my former life and once you have experienced the confined spaces in airplanes and helicopters you have to work in; this is wide open. The only thing I cannot do is remove the last valve cover if I need to adjust the valves. I did that before I put the engine in so the next time it needs that, I might just put a 6BT in there anyway.

The brake lines are not even close to the turbo. That is a optical illusion.


Hindsight 20/20.......I wish I would have done a different "heavy duty" front suspension and put a 6BT in there. I would still have notched the firewall regardless.

[dailyf100]

Woah! Sweet build. Love the Detroit Steel Wheels.

Thanks man. They should look pretty cool when painted with the dog dish on them.

[averagef250]

I sure hope it works for ya. You're in it pretty deep!

If you can swing it the 47RH and Compushift mini are a much better platform than the 4L80E.